"Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby helbling » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:52 am

Eh, BenT's points make sense only if you believe that hypocrisy is a rare flaw in the average human being and relatively unknown - and it isn't. I can't count how many guys I've met (and promptly run away from) who believe playing the field is fine for them, and cheating is both fine and even to a degree 'expected', but if women do it then they are forever scarred and 'unworthy'.

All of your supposed 'warning' signs for Alex could be explained away by him being one of those guys, and it's a common enough opinion that Katia probably thought it. As a matter of fact, it actually would explain Linda's claim that while she and Alex have an open relationship, they don't talk about it - most open relationships are just that - open and free not only to sleep with/fall for* other people, but also to discuss it, which Katia probably knows. The open-but-don't-say-a-word relationship Linda claimed is unusual, but would be more logical if one partner in the relationship, while wanting freedom for themselves, had a problem with their other half having the same liberties.

Which would also explain why Katia kissed Alex when she did - his attitude towards women having sex with multiple partners, or for no other reason than simply they want sex, was seen by her to be confirmation towards Linda's explanation being right. But not 100% confirmation - it probably only took her to somewhere between 70-80%. Not enough to be totally sure. But enough to test it by kissing Alex.

And then Alex kissed her back. Bingo, 100% confirmation achieved, project Loose-The-V-Card-In-A-Non-emotional-And-Unpressurised-Manner is a go.

Or at least, that's my take on it if you're going to think Katia has spent hours thinking on this and justifying it one way or another.

Frankly, I think everyone is reading far, far too much into Katia's thought processes. She is a fresh faced, excitable 18 year old newly allowed out into a mixed gender world and is eager to experience EVERYTHING. Her thought processes were probably no deeper than the following, and even then, probably hasn't used as many words as I have:

-I want to start having sex, but I need my first time to be in a safe environment.
-Alex is hot.
-Alex has a girlfriend and is therefore unavailable.
-Alex is in an open relationship? Do they actually exist?
-Open relationships do exist. So Alex is available for physical stuff.
-Alex apologised and is therefore not a complete jerk.
-Alex kissed me back, so also finds me attractive.
-I have fun when Alex and I hang out, so he's very much an option for my first time.
-Well, that was vaguely disappointing, but I don't want to hurt his feelings.
-WTF? *Confusion*

IMO: Katia is close to completely blameless in this scenario as you can get - in order to be any less blameless, she'd need to have some sort of psychic ability or be paranoid to the level that she double checks all information she gets before acting on it, which would make her an entirely different character, and an entirely less-likeable one in my eyes.

Here endeth my two pence.

* - depending on whether you're open or poly, but that distinction hasn't been touched on here
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby BenjaminT » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:25 am

helbling, I acknowledge that is one interpretation Katia could come to. This is why I said his comments in class didn't 100% rule out that Linda was lying. The open-but-don't-say-a-word relationship could make sense...but as you say it's unusual and wouldn't make much sense to someone totally unfamiliar with open relationships. In fact, we saw her struggling with the concept as she's strumming the guitar after he slut-shamed her. She definitely doesn't look like she's in the 70-80% sure range, here. She seems to have some serious doubts at this point. I'd put it at 50% at best.

If you've got serious doubts and getting involved with a cheater is important for you to avoid kissing is a stupid way to respond.

Although, like you said, if her thought processes are much more shallow and all she really needs to confirm is whether Alex provides a safe environment and he likes her, then sure. She's fine. His awkwardness is actually further evidence that he is probably relatively "safe" whether he's in an open relationship or a hesitant cheater. But that doesn't leave much room for anger if it turns out he really is a cheater.

My whole point was that she doesn't have much room to be angry about him being a cheater when she did nothing to rule that out and knew it was an option going in.

Sure, you've explained how it might make sense for him to have negative attitudes toward women who sleep around and yet still be in an open relationship. You still haven't shown how that rules out the possibility that he's a cheater. Certainly not 100% confirmed. It's like you've gone from, okay, it's possible to, okay it must be true.

Again, at the point where she kisses him she had JUST been sitting under a tree thinking this doesn't make sense. She was NOT thinking, hmm...I guess it makes perfect sense that Linda wouldn't want to talk about it with him if he likes to sleep around but doesn't want to hear of women sleeping around. Wow. Now I'm even more sure he's in an open relationship. I should probably kiss him to clinch it.

Of course, you're right that her personality wouldn't think it through that far...but the "feel" I get from her before the kiss is, "I'm not so sure anymore...this is weird" not "ooh, okay, I get it now...this makes logical sense"

So at her point of kissing she's not someone who's mostly sure so why not throw caution to the wind. You really think someone would have to be paranoid to want to check at that point? Really? His apology sounds like a perfect time to say, "Okay help me clear this up...are you in an open relationship or not because what you said to me doesn't make sense if you are" Would that have really been paranoid double checking? IF she's going to get mad if she later find out he's not in an open relationship she is totally not blameless if she doesn't ask.

And here's another thing. For it to be double checking there needs to be a first check. Where's her first check that he's not just a cheater? At what point does she have evidence that he's not a cheater? Kissing her doesn't provide that evidence. His schpeal in class doesn't provide evidence he's not a cheater. His awkwardness after kissing doesn't provide evidence he's not a cheater. While his actions don't preclude an open relationship they also don't preclude simple cheating.

You're right, that her personality is not likely to think things through very thoroughly. But IF she's going to get particularly mad about a guy being a cheater then she is to blame for getting involved with a guy who has a girlfriend without getting SOME evidence that he's not just a cheater. That evidence should not be solely from a potentially cheating girlfriend that she was warned can't be trusted.

Personally, I think I agree with others that she's not really mad beyond annoyed that he might be blaming or accusing her. That's what I initially predicted but Starline's picture looked like a stronger emotion to me so it threw me off guard for a minute.
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby HiFranc » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:26 pm

I think one of the outcomes of this is that Katia is going to start believing Candi a bit more.
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby peachytart » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:06 pm

moxiepurple wrote:It could get drawn out if they decide after their confrontation and fight that maybe they should be in an open relationship. *gasp* Then Linda still gets her way and we can keep hating her for it. hehe :D


I honestly don't think this will happen. Linda gets off on being conniving. If she and Alex agree to an open relationship, then she no longer gets a high from sneaking around, and I doubt she wants to give Alex the freedom to sleep with other women. I'm pretty sure what she wants is a steady, monogamous boyfriend who's completely faithful to her so she can pretend to be the perfect girlfriend while getting as much dick as she can behind his back.
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby ShadeTail » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:41 pm

f_sacksen wrote:What warning signs?

1. Candi's warning that Alex could be a dickhead. When someone who knows someone else better than you do warns you about that person, you're a fool if you just blithely dismiss it, even if you ultimately decide that it isn't true.

2. Alex slut-shaming her for wanting to do the same thing Linda was doing (or rather, the same thing Linda would have been doing if she and Alex really were in an open relationship). If he really approved of Linda sleeping around, then it's rather strange for him to have a problem with other girls doing it. She actually considered this question briefly, but shoved it away without an answer after he kissed her.

3. His nervousness and hesitation around her when she started getting more aggressive (here and here, for instance). She should have wondered why a guy who was allegedly experienced at sleeping around was getting the jitters when a girl threw herself at him.

Katia ignored all of that and jumped to a false conclusion, probably because that was the conclusion she wanted; it got her laid, after all. And the big lesson she needs to take away from this is: Talk to your potential bed partners first, rather than just assuming they feel the way you want them to.
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby Weltall84 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:03 pm

f_sacksen wrote:
ShadeTail wrote:She didn't actually trust Linda, but she did trust Alex despite the warning signs, and that was where things went wrong.


What warning signs? From Katia's point of view, here is the series of events:

Meets Alex - - > Crushes on Alex - - > Is told Alex has girlfriend - - > Is told Alex is Candi's ex and not to trust Linda - - > Is told Alex is in an open relationship - - > Alex calls her a slut - - > Alex apologizes - - > Alex flirts with her, kisses her and then sleeps with her.

Where, precisely, where the warning signs that Alex was EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL Incarnate and that Katia should STAY AWAY AND BEGONE FROM HERE?

We know what was going on, but Audience Knowledge =/= Character Knowledge.

NOTE: I apologize if I seem confrontational, I'm just confused.


I think what Shadetail meant was Katia did not triple check the facts by doing what most people would have; "freaking ASKED Alex if he and Linda if they were in an open relationship". That is just about where Katia screwed up in the equation; she did not ascertain the facts by directly asking the needed question especially as many have pointed out, Alex's slut-shaming episode was a big indicator that made her question if Linda was lying and her way of "testing if it was true or not" was to kiss him, now yes he did kiss back, but regardless that isn't the best way to get an answer. Plus showing she still held Alex in regard after what he did shows bad judgement since as some have pointed out, his lame-ass apology didnt magically mean his opinions changed which unfortunately makes Katia look foolish for pursuing Alex as her "no pressure first lay", as to me it's akin to a girl returning to a boyfriend who disrespects her.

That just sums up about Katia's only fault in that in her hormonial zeal to have her "experiences" she didn't triple check to ensure she was avoiding the drama she stated she wanted to avoid. The rest of the blame falls onto Linda (for starting the lie to cover her ass) which is about 10% of blame, Katia has 10% for her not properly fact-checking and the remaining whooper of 80% blame falls onto Alex for going with the motions, without stating and clarifying he was in a committed relationship and said jack shit until AFTER the deed was done. To me his feeling and fessing to the uilt AFTER the fact makes me dislike him more as he KNEW what was going on, but went with it, and his now feeling the guilt seems like a cop-out.

Also Alex is hardly evil incarnate, and even Linda doesn't cross that line. She's just a selfish, manipulative, unfaithful, dellusional, super-bitch, and Alex is a hypocritical self-absorbed ultra douche know-it-all.
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby Tamarisk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:19 pm

ShadeTail wrote:
f_sacksen wrote:What warning signs?

1. Candi's warning that Alex could be a dickhead. When someone who knows someone else better than you do warns you about that person, you're a fool if you just blithely dismiss it, even if you ultimately decide that it isn't true.

2. Alex slut-shaming her for wanting to do the same thing Linda was doing (or rather, the same thing Linda would have been doing if she and Alex really were in an open relationship). If he really approved of Linda sleeping around, then it's rather strange for him to have a problem with other girls doing it. She actually considered this question briefly, but shoved it away without an answer after he kissed her.

3. His nervousness and hesitation around her when she started getting more aggressive (here and here, for instance). She should have wondered why a guy who was allegedly experienced at sleeping around was getting the jitters when a girl threw herself at him.

Katia ignored all of that and jumped to a false conclusion, probably because that was the conclusion she wanted; it got her laid, after all. And the big lesson she needs to take away from this is: Talk to your potential bed partners first, rather than just assuming they feel the way you want them to.


All true ShadeTail. There's quite a few lessons she needs to take away from this. I really think she was too caught up in the moment of "Hey, he finds me attractive! I could get to experience dating and sex! WOOHOO!" to really put all the facts together. Many of us looking at all this see warning signs falling out of Alex's ears but we've all had at least a bit of experience. She's undoubtedly had exposure to this sort of thing and knows something about it but having knowledge and practical application of that knowledge are two different things. Alex seems like such a nice guy (he slut shamed her but hey, he did apologize and she has no idea that he only apologized because Candi made him do it) and nice guys don't cheat on their girlfriends right? Many nice people do not-so-nice things and learning that is just part of life. There are very few paragons of virtue out there and many more "nice people" who have an occasional fall from grace or weak spot in their personality. Everything that has happened is going to make sense once she sits down and likely has a roommate or two to help her flesh out the parts that she doesn't know or didn't understand. Hopefully both Katia and Alex will learn from this.

Off subject but I REALLY hope this sends Alex into a spiral of horribleness where he realizes what an ass he is and what a manipulative, conniving person Linda is. Also how easy he was to lure away from Candi and how much better off he was with her. I know they had problems and such and I don't want them to get back together again but it would please me greatly if he came to realize everything he lost if only to grow from the knowledge. Candi really is wife material. She's loyal and devoted with a very protective mothering personality (just look at her response to him hurting Katia who kinda brings out the mothering instinct in the other girls in the house). Sure she's young and still maturing but what IMO is great about long term relationships is that you get to grow together and help each other become better people. Candi was a differing opinion and point of view that he should have been taking to heart instead of trying to change into who he felt she should be. We all benefit from looking through someone else's eyes every once in a while.
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby SumiSandi » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:01 pm

In Spanish this would be a !!!TOMA!!! moment. (Basically getting slapped in the face w/ something unexpected.) Tee-hee!!! <3 it!
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby ladyaliara » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:33 pm

Poor Katia. I feel so awful for her about this. Granted, the first time is never good....still, it sucks that it was ruined for her like that. :cry:
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby Tamarisk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:49 pm

ladyaliara wrote:Poor Katia. I feel so awful for her about this. Granted, the first time is never good....still, it sucks that it was ruined for her like that. :cry:


Yah, you'd hope for some cuddling afterward and talking about the first time maybe followed by a round 2. I highly doubt there's gonna be a round 2 or any talking about what they just did other than the fact that Katia was wayyyy wrong about the open relationship thing and Alex just cheated. Hopefully she'll give Thad a call after this. Maybe she could catch a ride over there with Jess. :lol:
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby PaulJones202718 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:00 pm

raoullefere wrote:I agree with BenjaminT, too. I suspect Katia didn't try harder to verify Alex's open relationship one way or the other because she didn't really want to. She wanted Alex to be available, and so gave herself 'pleasant answers' (or didn't seek any at all) to help herself get to the place she wanted to be. So now, Toyota!*

And yes, it is bad that Katia didn't pick a more responsible, honest person to have sex with, but I still say that when someone insults you for expressing yourself, that's a clue they're probably not the person you need to try to further that line of self-expression with, no matter how remorseful they are later. Forgive 'em? Sure. But be careful.

And yes, I suppose Katia's learning these things, but ignorance only lets her off so much for her part in arriving at this juncture. So to speak.

* You asked for it, you got it!


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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby clif » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Well, there's drama, but it's not really her drama. She had Linda's word there was an open relationship. She made Alex an offer. He accepted and certainly didn't have to. She has no big kick coming from the fact that he was cheating on Linda, but so what? It's really their problem, not hers. There's not a lot there for her that she desperately needs to learn, but there's plenty to take away. Random sex for her isn't necessarily all that. Good to know. People are weak and when tempted, will do things they really know they shouldn't. Good to know. Linda is lying scum. Good to know. As long as she doesn't over-generalize, she's fine.

The interest is in what Alex might learn.
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby Fereshte » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:15 pm

BenjaminT wrote:And here's another thing. For it to be double checking there needs to be a first check. Where's her first check that he's not just a cheater? At what point does she have evidence that he's not a cheater? Kissing her doesn't provide that evidence. His schpeal in class doesn't provide evidence he's not a cheater. His awkwardness after kissing doesn't provide evidence he's not a cheater. While his actions don't preclude an open relationship they also don't preclude simple cheating.


I honestly don't think Katia thought Alex would cheat. It doesn't seem to have crossed her mind even once. Sure, she thought *Linda* might cheat, but she had a vague warning about Linda's reliability. But Alex? In fact, her entire reaction to him was hinged upon the fact that she either believed he never would, or never thought that he would. That may be dangerously naive on her part, but it seems to her that if he kissed her, the only option was that he was in an open relationship. She seems to be of the opinion that if he wasn't, he would have stopped her, and most certainly not kissed her back. She didn't do a first check to see if he was a cheater because she never thought to.

Katia *is* 18, after all. And at 18, there often is this mentality of "it won't happen to me." Sure, I can get into a car accident if I text and drive, but *it won't happen to me.* Sure, a someone could slip a drug into my drink but *it won't happen to me.* Sure, some women get raped, but *it won't happen to me. Likewise, sure, guys use women to cheat, but *it won't happen to me*. This is the dangerous mindset of many young adults, who only learn otherwise after a painful, eye-opening experience. Katia is still of that childlike mentality that bad things don't happen to good people, and that good people don't do bad things. While not all teens have this, there are plenty who do (and even some adults, too. Why do you think so many people struggle to deal with rape?). Katia seems to be one of them. Is that stupid to us, who are older, more experienced, and know better? Yes, but Katia is just learning, and I think she will be genuinely shocked to find that Alex *would* cheat.

The only thing Katia did wrong here was be a little too inexperienced, and a little too trusting--which is a character flaw all of us must be broken of at one time or another. I agree with Helbling:

helbling wrote:
Frankly, I think everyone is reading far, far too much into Katia's thought processes. She is a fresh faced, excitable 18 year old newly allowed out into a mixed gender world and is eager to experience EVERYTHING. Her thought processes were probably no deeper than the following, and even then, probably hasn't used as many words as I have:

-I want to start having sex, but I need my first time to be in a safe environment.
-Alex is hot.
-Alex has a girlfriend and is therefore unavailable.
-Alex is in an open relationship? Do they actually exist?
-Open relationships do exist. So Alex is available for physical stuff.
-Alex apologised and is therefore not a complete jerk.
-Alex kissed me back, so also finds me attractive.
-I have fun when Alex and I hang out, so he's very much an option for my first time.
-Well, that was vaguely disappointing, but I don't want to hurt his feelings.
-WTF? *Confusion*


I think this thought process follows, very closely, what someone of Katia's youth and inexperience would be thinking. Maybe she could read his reactions as awkward or hesitant, but that doesn't mean she would equate them to his cheating. In the end, the blame is 100% on Alex. Yes, Katia was confused, but only Alex is 100% responsible for his part of his relationship. No one can force another to cheat, and Katia is in no way accountable for Alex's fidelity.
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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby DDR_Ninja » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:25 pm

While I have to agree that logically, absolutely, the drama rests on the shoulders of Alex and Linda for being the engineers behind this whole circus act... let's face it, when are humans *EVER* just 100% logical and rational when it comes to emotions?

I do agree that Katia deserves none of the drama bomb that is bound to ensue, but I am also convinced that Linda and Alex will force their drama on her somehow. Question is if Candi will make a repeat of her Mama bear performance earlier, via the slut-shaming issue, or if this time she stands back and watches everyone else deal with it. Or, perhaps one or more of the other roomies will fill that role.

Regardless, even though Katia isn't the one who MADE that rotten bed, she did still sleep in it, so she gets dragged into it no matter how much she does or does not deserve it, that's all.

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Re: "Because Linda Told Me So" Jan 10/2012

Postby Amethyst Shadow » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:18 pm

ShadeTail wrote:
f_sacksen wrote:What warning signs?

1. Candi's warning that Alex could be a dickhead. When someone who knows someone else better than you do warns you about that person, you're a fool if you just blithely dismiss it, even if you ultimately decide that it isn't true.


Being a dick =/= being a liar or cheater. Especially considering she prefaced the dick comment by saying "He usually means well..." in not only the same breath but the same sentence as the dick comment. "He usually means well" is not a comment I generally attribute to someone not to be trusted.

2. Alex slut-shaming her for wanting to do the same thing Linda was doing (or rather, the same thing Linda would have been doing if she and Alex really were in an open relationship). If he really approved of Linda sleeping around, then it's rather strange for him to have a problem with other girls doing it. She actually considered this question briefly, but shoved it away without an answer after he kissed her.


I'll agree that this is a bit of oxymoronic behavior that should have raised a flag to her. But considering her attention was more so focused on being hurt than thinking logically.

3. His nervousness and hesitation around her when she started getting more aggressive (here and here, for instance). She should have wondered why a guy who was allegedly experienced at sleeping around was getting the jitters when a girl threw herself at him.


We, the readers know the true reasons for his nervousness are because his under-developed conscience was bugging him. But Katia had no such insight. As far as she's concerned he could have been nervous because he actually did like her and was anxious about not screwing up their "dates". Speaking from experience, just because you have an open relationship doesn't make meeting/pursuing a potential new partner any less anxiety inducing or awkward than it does for single people. Unless you're fortunate enough to have your girlfriend as your wingman ;)

Katia ignored all of that and jumped to a false conclusion


No she jumped to a conclusion based on bad intel. She didn't ignore anything, she was mislead by both words and behavior.

probably because that was the conclusion she wanted; it got her laid, after all.


Which was her original clearly expressed purpose.

And the big lesson she needs to take away from this is: Talk to your potential bed partners first, rather than just assuming they feel the way you want them to.


Again she was running off of bad intel from sources that should have been reliable. Again it is not her responsibility to grill Alex on whether his relationship is actually open or not. The only tangible reason she had to think Linda might not be being truthful is the word of Linda's boyfriend's ex. That's not what could be considered an unbiased source by any stretch of the imagination. Again WE, the readers, know that Candi's opinion is well founded. However, Katia wasn't there for the train wreck and hasn't been given any of the details by anyone who was involved/witnessed it in person/dealt with the fallout. And again Alex's own behavior not only didn't give her a reason to doubt Linda, but actually reinforced the "fact" that he was in an open relationship.
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